I been thinking about the comments made in the thread that Le Nez linked to in the 'grunge' thread. For those that missed it . . .

Click to see the original link


Now, scratch the surface and there's some interesting issues being raised here beyond the fairly obvious metaller having a moan up.

There's always been an us and them mentality in metal / alternative circles and there has always been a level of resentment for anything that gains popularity. That seems to be true regardless of whether the bands / genres in question actually have anything of merit, it seems to be more of a resentment of anything 'new' (although in this case we're not talking about a new genre).

So why is that, where does this hatred of something becoming popular come from?

Is there anything to be gained from keeping stuff underground or is the opposite true?

Why is it that stoner, doom, sludge and grunge seem to be enjoying a surge of interest?

Now, this thread has the potential to go horribly wrong. There's nothing wrong with a bit of debate but we're not here to slag anyone off so keep it friendly!!!!

Same goes in indie/alt circles too (NME are classic for this). In fact it's worse there IMO. Also it's rife in the classical arena apparently. Those guys are the stuffiest of them all.

It's a tough one. I think some of it has to do with the orthodoxy being undermined. You know 'us classic metal dudes were here and ruled the roost before you doom Jonny come latelys'. This is especially the case when a new 'scene' is fundamentally removed, or even antithetical to the existing scene (back to the hair metal/grunge conversation). The incumbent scene would feel threatened by their lack of understanding or empathy with the new movement and thus would view it with suspicion or animosity.

Interestingly, I think it's less to do with either money and success and more to do with the jarring insurgency of fashions. I think a lot of folks just don't like seeing kids wearing new styles, as the music is often totally avoidable - just don't listen to it.

Then there's the issue of press. You only have to skim the music press thread to know that people feel a sense of ownership over these magazines. When MH (NME, Classic FM magazine) apparently sell their soul to the new trend, it's gonna piss of the loyal readers (of the pasts year when they featured the current trend).

Finally, nothing is more irritating than seeing a bunch of folks apparently just jumping on a bandwagon, or blindly following what NME tells them they should like. I think this happens to an extent, but when bands get more exposure, more people here them, thus, assuming they're not shit, more people will start getting into them and wearing the t-shirts.

This is a huge issue. Sure this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Oh yeah, and all you bandwagon jumpin, cap wearin, stoner doom pot heads can just get the fuck off my lawn! JAGERRRRR!

It's an interesting one, especially in this context. Stoner and doom are musically not that far removed from classic metal, even the heavier end of things isn't a million miles away from death metal. I could understand a look of confuzzlement when confronted with something like Sunn 0))), but even then there's still a strong link to BM even if it is just Attila Csihar. So in this instant it does seem to be more of a fashion issue, the comments about hats, beards etc seem to back up that conclusion. Surely on a musical level the classic metal fellas should be glad that stoner and doom is gaining popularity as it means there will be less fringey hairdo bands around and, as I mentioned, stoner and doom sits, at least musically, next to classic metal far more comfortably. I think you've hit on an interesting point that the followers of the current 'underground' trend, in this case trad metal, seem to be threatened by an incoming trend, in this case stoner etc.

I have noticed the NME giving bands like Sunn 0))), Electric Wizard, Nebula and Wooden Shjips some very good reviews. Maybe that's where this apparently trendier element is coming from?

As far as metal goes it's interesting, as I mentioned on the grunge thread, that stoner, doom, grunge etc seem to be gaining popularity at a time when, at least in my opinion, mainstream metal seems to be turning into a parody of itself. Indie seems to have painted itself into a bit of a corner recently (at least from what I can gather, I'm probably wrong about that) so maybe that's why there's a heightened interest in a scene that has produced and is producing some fantastic bands. Anyone else got any thoughts on this?

The question needs to be asked, is increased attention necessarily a bad thing?

Well, as you are probably sick of hearing I've been into metal for many decades. If you're me it is very tempting to stand in a corner and sneer at the lastest arrivals, the latest 'scenes' and the people who think they own metal, or whatever other genre they might be into. But, for my part, I try not to do this. My preferred listening for many years now has been BM and doom, both of which are intrinsically underground by virtue of the fact that a 'mainstream' listener would probably get very little out of them, and most likely just wouldn't appreciate them either. I like them to be underground because that means I don't have to share them with (too many) fakkin idiots. I would prefer them to remain out of the hands of bloody scene teenagers who pick them up today, and dump them again tomorrow as they move on to the new big fad. But I don't object to younger people, or people with a different perspective on life to me, getting into BM and doom if they're honest, serious minded and respectful of the music and its legacy. In fact I have a good few close mates into BM who are many years younger than me. And the age gap is simply not there because the bond created by kvlt BM, for instance, is strong and powerful and overides all human limitations.

Doom, BM, stoner, sludge have been around for a fakkin long time, and have their dedicated circles who will follow the bands and grab the releases regardless of whether they're on the cover of Terrorizer this month or not. I can tolerate a few tourists tots because I know that within a few months they'll have discovered KMFDM, before moving onto crust punk and then ska etc etc ad nauseum. Eventually they'll be ensconced in a nice besuited career and laugh with their mates at all the 'crazy' things they did when they were young. The don't know the meaning of the word 'crazy', and they never will. Meanwhile the bands and those of us who really believe in them will still be around.

There's nothing worse than fakes mate.


IQ//**

Black metal seems to be quite an extreme example of the fans resenting mass exposure, I think that's a whole different conversation in it's own right. Not being a BM fan I can't really comment on this.

One thing that you have hit on is the issue of protecting the music that you're into, why is that? Is there any real effect on a 'scene' if people are casually just dipping in and out of it? As you mentioned, in any scene there will always be people who are REALLY into it and will be flying the flag long after it's popularity fades, especially in metal/alt circles. So really, other than being a tad annoying to the hardcore fans does something becoming popular really have a negative effect on it?

I can appreciate how it's annoying to see people drift from one scene to another, I've had a fair few moan ups about it myself. The thing is, the way, and probably more importantly the speed at which music is now 'consumed' means that scene hopping will become more frequent. Five minutes on a fast internet connection can turn you into an expert on pretty much any band you want.

I'm not sure it has an entirely negative effect on a music genre, identified as underground or alt, if an influx of outsiders decide to 'own' it, albeit temporarily. I mean, this didn't help Killing Joke too much in the 80s, when they went from being a really extreme cult band into chartsters with a hairdresser following. Thereafter - post Nightime - they bombed for a while, although that may have had as much to do with their warring personalities as much as record company pressure to produce a hit single. But it isn't very likely that too many 14 plus year olds are going to get into, say, Cathedral and become life long followers. Some will yeah. But a lot, as you say, will have picked up on them and enhanced their knowledge via the web, but wiil not ever develop any real appreciation of what Dorrian et al have been about for 20 years now. And that's the key. Cathedral will be around for a long time yet, but I doubt the boppers who will buy the limited edition of The Guessing Game will be. Point is: it won't cange Cathedral. And people like me will just laugh, as usual.

IQ

Going back to the link that kicked off this thread for a minute.

What are the chances, really, of stoner etc becoming the next 'thing'?

As far as I see it the stoner, doom, sludge etc scene(s) are producing some fantastic bands who are doing some interesting stuff, I could make a list as long as your arm (and that would include just the bands around here!!!) whereas 'metal' seems to be producing endless Pantera / Lamb of God clones or there's the whole battle / symphonic / power metal thing which, as far as I'm concerned, is just a bit of a bad joke. The really mainstream acts like Trivum, Bullet For My Valentine, Machine Head seem to be becoming more and more removed from the 'grass roots' music scene.

So, is stoner etc getting more popular because it's a fashion thing or is it because more and more metal fans are simply getting bored of the old crop of metal?

There are, as I mentioned, a hell of a lot of great bands coming out of the stoner scene at the moment, whereas the 'trad metal' scene seems to be, at least as far as I can tell, caught in a bit of a loop. But then, I guess, that's the risk a scene that bases itself at the very core on aping something that's happened before has to take.

Any thoughts?

Interestingly these 2 points converge. What happens when an undergound genre goes mainstream is a proportion of that genre who are interested in fame and money, or perhaps just get carried along with the surge, will start to change because of the strains of commercial responsibilities. These bands will usually still be strongly associated with, and retain many of the trappings of their originating genre, despite not really being particularly closely related to it any more. This happened in the BM scene with bands like CoF and Dimmu Bollocks. The BM tag just does not fit with these bands any more, but still they are the only bands of the BM genre that many folks know, and in some respect, in the eyes of the 'masses' they define that genre, rather than, say, Mayhem or DsO. It's understandable that the kvlt tries to distance themselves from this, even to the point where I (grudgingly) empathize with Vikernes for entirely disowning the genre he helped create.

The point is, getting popular will change a 'scene' or genre to an extent and often for the worse. Yes, the diehards won't change their opinion of Cathedral just cos a bunch of doom bands made it big, BUT the rest of the world will form a view of the genre that I very much doubt the diehards will be comfortable with.

Now, like the BM kvlt, it's likely that said diehards will (secretly or otherwise) actually really value and enjoy their outsider status and slagging off the mainstream becomes a favourite passtime. But one way or another, the genre will have broadened and morphed out of recognition for the vast majority of observers.

I direct you back to the hardcore thread as a case in point. The modern view of 'post hardcore' may not change the view of us old geezers of what hardcore really is, but it was obvious from our reactions that we were at least mildly outraged...

Firstly, I'm rather offended that Chris just lumped Machine Head in with Trivium and BFMV! Whilst I admit that MH were starting to disappear up their own arses, they've really pulled it together over the last few years. I saw them at Wacken last year and was blown away, whereas I saw them 3 or 4 years before that, same festival, same stage, they sucked! What they're doing now is very much an updated version of their old sound with exciting new influences from death metal and more extreme genres. Anyways, off topic rant over!

I think, as with all things in life, increased popularity for a genre is a double edged sword. There are positive and negative aspects to it. For example:

If a genre gets more popular, more people are exposed to it and the following grows. This is good because it means there are more fans at gigs, more people to buy CDs/merch, more decent bands making that type of music, more innovation, more great people to meet who share interests with you etc. This is also bad because it means it can be harder to get in to gigs when they sell out, harder and more expensive to get hold of merch/limited editions that all true fans simply must have, more shitty clones and imitators (bandwagon jumpers if you will), more stagnation of ideas and more twats you might encounter.

Personally, I hope it gets more popular with hot young girls. People do come up to me from time to time and mention Funeral Hag, but they are almost invariably hairy men! That is no good whatsoever.

As for music tourists, I'm one of the worst of them so can't really say anything too negative. I spend all day on my PC at work, so I often end up bimbling around the internets looking for something new to listen to. I can't see any reason why people shouldn't do that. If I like a band that I find, I'll most likely buy their CDs, shirts and go see them live. I might not listen to them much in a few years time, but that's because there's always new and exciting stuff. But ultimately they have benefited from my interest, and nobody has been negatively affected.

This quote is immense.